ALL / PRI ISA FASCIS States. They haven't structured it, developed Marxist-Leninist traditional type parties, but they have grasp of the principles and they're looking around for forms to cope with the situation now. It was because the Black Panther Party was already structured that we overtly began to use Marxism-Leninism. Because there was a need.
However, when we had a need for mass education of the party in Marxist-Leninist principles we had a lot of books that were printed in Russia, more or less running along with ine Soviet line-so that we found a lot of revisionis attitudes, a lot of alien attitudes, started cropping up in the party. There something aDOLE the articulation of Marxism-Leninism in that manner that affectected people you see, so we stopped using those books, and we started rewnung tat material for ourseive: and started using more of a variety of books, and so forth until right now we find thim il Sung tonbe more helpful to us than certain analyses Comrade analyses made by certain revisionists.
-Could you give any more specific examples of analysis of Kim I! Sung which particularly you found relevant? The concept of Juche that they've worked out; it's a concept of self-reliance that
justifies the independent existence of each will traditional in the Socialist movement, this is really the key factor. When I talk about the value of certain ideological provisions, I'm talking specifically about this concept of Juche. Because of their own experience, they have worked out this concept gives an analysis of the origin of the party as related to a specific struggle, and how those who were directly involved in that struggle are the ones who must have control ot the ideology of the This becomes very important when you consider just talking about China and Russia—has a tendency to try to unite under itself all of the other communist parties and to force on them certain ideological lines.
The great contribution that Kim II Sung made, is the concept of the autonomy of a party. the integrity ol a party, the purports to represent, the duty of the 1A2T they must rely their resources in their struggle in order to gain experiences of others while always being open to beneficial aspects of others' experi Marxism-Leninism. This concept of Juche deserves to be taken further.. Let me read struggle.
you something of Kim II Sung. "Only by firmly establishing Juche can each country repudiate flunkeyism and dogmatism and creatively apply the universal truth of Marxism-Leninism discarding the spirit of relying on others and displaying the spirit of self-reliance and accordingly carrying on is revolunonary cause and construction work with success."
Now to me this is very interesting. We have found that in our relationships with the CP in the United States, they will never come out and say "we follow the Soviet line". But when they come to taking up positions on various issues, this is what they do. They even challenged our right to adopt Marxism-Leninism—we could only do it under their good offices. So that this principle of Juche, bolstered up our own selfassurance. The American CP used to put me uptight-they were able to make us feel that we might be doing something wrong.
When a cat begins to utilise Marxism-Leninism, if he's not careful he could be made to feel that he's stealing something or that he doesn't really have the right to do that, and this sort of takes away the dynamic approach that you need., You may think that I'm making too big a thing of this, but to us it was a major break-through to relate to the whole concept of Jucheand you go beyond that to the analysis of the Dictatorship of the Proletariat, specifically worked out to combat some of the influences seeping into the Socialist movement because of what they call the liberalisation campaign that's going on in Eastern Europe. To me they're disastrous effects coming out of Europe, in terms of what's happening in the Soviet Union, and what's happening Czechoslovakia, Rumania and all those places. The Koreans maintain a kind of rigid position on these questions and I think that at this time it is necessary. -What do you see as the main effect of the Sino-Soviet split on the American liberation movements?
People who were relating to Marxism-Leninism in the United States were some of the least racist people in the country, people who were constantly trying to get away from racism. But it seems that the Soviet is creating a technique through which people can purport to Marxist-Leninist, and at the same time be racist. This is something that I think is very very threatening to us in the United States. In its response to China, the Soviet Union is uniting more and more with Capitalist countries, and they're developing arguments to justify this, and these arguments carry over into the United States. The communist party in the United States is becoming more and more white. The Black Panther Party is moving in just the opposite direction. Weire trying to move away from just a Black thing to develop a machinery that enable us relate to white party and gives it some ideological defences revolationaries. In their jealous attempt to against the type of domination that is maintain a sort of papal attitude towards Marxism-Leninism,-like they have the only true authorised version of Marxism-Leninism you know,the CA are drifting more and more into racism.
Also Jews in the United States are bethat coming more and more Nationalist. In spite of revolutionary principle they find it impossible to relate to the struggle over Palestine. This is why we've begun to relate to that question, because we think this is one of the key problems in the world today. You know, Black people are called to oppose them? that, each Communist Party,—I'm really upon to take up arms against other, black have black enemies inside the United States, so that we don't see any reason why Jews can't do the same thing.
But they're not relating to it in that manner, they're sort of caught up in this whole sentimental approach to history and they're trying to use the bones responsibility of a party to those whom it of the victims of Hitler to justify the bones of the Palestinian people that they are members of the party to have an awareness piling up. I notice a very breaking effect on the movement because a lot of young Jewish militants are unable to relate to that success, not to blindly follow behind the particular problem, and to make an analysis of that based on revolutionary principles.
They find it much easier to relate to a ence, all this articulated and related to revisionist form of Marxism-Leninism that itself obviates or postpones the armed -Panthers have in fact declared solidarity with the Palestinian Guerrillas.
Yes. But we're not satisfied with the position that we've taken, because we haven't really gained enough information on that subject. The whole thing that is going on in the Arab world is very very deep and we don't claim to understand it.
But just on the basis of the necessities, we have to confront-Israel being supported by the United States imperialists,—we know enough about the situation to know that it's utterly. impossible for us to support Israel. We know that justice is on the side of the people who have been kicked out of to relating to particular organisations or a practical matter, this is where we have a big expensive.
problem, because it ain't what it seems to De. There's much more to it. We're a Marxist-Leninist organisation, so that we have some natural sympathies for some other Marxist-Leninist organisations, and you know that in certain parts of the world Marxist-Leninists catch hell.
—To go back again to America, when the Panther Party talk about seizing power in America, there seemed to be at first a tenency to talk about this in terms of seizing power in Black communities and neighbourhoods. Is this still the case?
Things have gone beyond that. I talked with you earlier about the concept of community What has happened is that the whole focus of our movement and out attack was upon the specific grievances of the black community, which grievances of the proletariat in the nited didn't States didn't exist, it just meant that there were certain priorities. Dealing with these has opened up the way for us to deal more and more with the general grievances of the Proletariat in the United States. So that we see both of these things going on at the same time, which means dealing more and more with the class struggle than with the ethnic problems power structure of America with entire -You are in fact confronting resources.
This has become very clear, I mean its very clear now. This is a good thing and not a bad thing because before, much energy was being wasted, or not getting the results that we desired, because of this mask, this facade, that the power structure has, and that we had to deal with. Look at all the time, effort, blood, and suffering that went on over dealing with these separate but equal facilities in the United States. Years were spent dealing with that, 50 years as a matter of fact, since the beginning of NAACP right up to 1954, then going through from 1956 from the Montgomery bus boycott, all through SNCC history all of that time was spent just dealing with really irrelevant structures that the system has created. They don't begin to deal with the system itself. That period we feel is all over, because just about all that has been smashed-we have another approach to the problem that gets to some of those deeper issues.
—In fact you're aiming for Washington or aiming to overthrow Washington?
Washington. Washington D.C. Because that's where the seat of power is. That's where the country is controlled from Actually we're aiming for Long IslandLong Island controls New York, New York controls the Country and the country controis the world.
On the way there it seems to me you have two problems, your enemies and your friends. four enemies are perhaps the richest and most powerful men in the world. What do you think of your resources Well, I don't think that if you deal with these type of quantities you get very far. A big fat capitalist with a billion dollars is still a big fat capitalist. He's only as powerful as the he's able to deceive and manipulate. As I think has been happening, he's finding it more and more difficult to deceive and manipulate people. In the first place his mass madia are being circumvented: alternative media, and methods of communicating have been developed so that the process of suppressing is destroying his ability to manipulate people through his own media. If you look at what's going on in the Army, you find the process of decay and decomposition is rapidly acceleratingparticularly amongst black troups. General Westmoreland, the Chief of Staff of the armed forces, ordered a study to determine the extent of Black Panther influence in the army. There is a big thing going on now.
We know this because we have contacts with the G.l.s and we know how the brothers are feeling, and we know how a lot of white cats are feeling in the army. So it's not the number of dollars or resources or property control or deeds of trust that really count, it's what the people think, and what the people are doing that really matters. A big fat pig in the legislature, no matter what his resources are, if he doesn't have some strong-arm shooters to protect him, well we can just walk in there and grab him by his ears. We have to organise their land. Now when you come specifically people, and organise fighting people, the materials to fight with aren't that —Your friends. As you head toward this kind of power, if you look as if you're getting assistance of people who in tesmselves foresee would like to have that power?
That always takes place, doesn't it? We find that Politicians on the make use whatever is happening amongst the people as a lever against those above them. So we play them off against each other, and they try to play us off against their enemies and this is the way the whole process goes down. It's a whole style of politics that we are in conflict with-many people who think that they can ride to power on our backs will be up against a wall with the rest of them when we get into a position to put them there.
—Do you imagine that this would lead to an ideological hardening in your line as you differentiate yourselves from these false "friends"?
I think that one's ideology must protect one from making improper alliances. We don't want to be opportunists, and we don't want to fall into alliances with improper persons, or improper organisations. We understand What the bases of a Socialist Society are. The things that have to be done are what will divide friends from the enemies, so that those who will go along in transforming the American economy from Is present monstrosity to a Socialist economy where the means of production are owned by the seople, those who go along like that and don't make problems, we won't have problems with them, but those who would have objections to that, those would have to be dealt with. So by following the principles of Marxism-Leninism, and by moving to develop the type of society that we're talking about, I think that enemies and friends can be dealt with. —In any revolutionary struggle policies are only made in the dialectic between actior ind theory. Where do you turn for you theory?
Well I don't think we really turn anywhere any more you know. Because we are in the process now of trying to expound a little theory of our own. After one has a grasp upon these principles, there's really no The Black Dwarf March 7 1970 Page 8 need. Except like I had to do iust now, to turn to a written document to refresh one's memory. I don't think that any movement could rely upon constantly turning to the texts of other people. At some point you have to develop the ability to expound these principles for yourself, and to apply them ever freshly to the changing situation.
We're in a position now where we can't really rely on anyone for our overall theoretical analysis. We must make this ourselves. We're beginning to deal with that, that's been one of the very positive things that has happened in the party, we have developed people who are able to make theoretical analyses of our situation and relate them in a very respectable manner to the history of the whole move-What do you think is the next ste forward, first of all for America, politically.
You talking about the enemy? I think that decisions have already been made to go all the way to madness, it's very clear to me,because I know Richard Nixon, you see, and I know that he's a mad dog. And it may even be that decisions have already been made that will destroy the world, because he's capable of doing that, he's even fool enough to think that he can be successful. We've got a hot race on our hands to deal with this situation, because you have to couple their destructive capacity with madness: and they're not going to capitulate. That's why the American revolution is so important. It's very important to speed that up at any cost. To a lot of people world, America is Fortress America, but to those within it's like a skeleton. in armour. America is very vulnerable from within, and if enough people understand that and move on that, it may be possible to avert disaster, but if they don't then I think that Americans will take the world down the drain. In certain circles, even in the Military, you have some people who see the threat involved, and who would even be willing challenge Government to the left. It's only a question of creating conditions where they're forced to move. But it's only by action of the people that we'll force these contradictions in these circles to come to a boiling point.
—So what would you say was the next step for you, here?
Well for me the next step is developing the kind of machinery that can get me back into the United States in a form that I can function. Practically, the only step that I'm interested in is the war, because that's the only thing that is of any value now.
And for the Black Panther Party? It's the same, we must, we must you see, we must, I'm not talking about relating to the armed struggle as a pastime or a part-time thing, I'm talking about a total situation that's the process that's beginning to develop, I mean, that process that's under way. The main obstacle right now is the courts. I think that even the Black Panther Party at this point is relating too much to the courts. In my own case, I have completely offed all relationship with the American judicial system. We all know that the American judicial system is part of the apparatus of oppression yet people are continuing to play games with that. I think that with the way the American judicial system is functioning now, it will not be too long before it will be dead for all of us. Once that happens then the war will be on in earnest. -Do you really think that the culmination of the struggle to liberate the blacks of the United States is the revolution?
That's the only way we can be liberated You see right now blacks in the United States are going through a parallel phase to the neo-colonialism that you see in pure colonial situations. When Nixon enunciated his doctrine of Black capitalism, this was the power structure throwing in its hand on the old forms, and they began to consciously pump millions of dollars into hands of the black bourgeoisie, and to set up certain iront men CATTEND They are beginning to consciously integrate the black bourgeoisie into the ruling class, to give them certain securities and guarantees that they require at this point. So that we're in a position now where our attack has to be upon the system as a whole POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
The Black Dwarf 7th March 1970 Page 9