the working class movement.
articles.
• You voted against the government's White Paper in the House of Commons. Could you explain the reasons why you took this step?
Because I fought two elections on a policy of maintaining living standards and maintaining public expenditure, and the Government White Paper is a complete departure from this position.
• Would you support groups of workers going into struggle against these proposals?
The support which an MP can Bive to peopie on surike is ratner notional. I am certainly not advocating that workers cease their attempts to secure what they think are proper wages. I support attempts to get decent wages.
• If these present Government policies are continued what do you think will be their effect on the electoral result of the Labour Party at the next general election?
It will be very bad. It was a great help in speaking in the October election-to say that the Labour Party had kept its promises. It will be a very difficult position if it is not possible any more to say this.
• What sort of alternative strategy do you think should be fought for?
We have outlined this at some length in the Tribune economic documents. I think that the central issue is that the problems which face us are not caused by workers having "excessive" wages, but from the fact that we have an economy based on private profit and the whole capitalist system in the western world is in slump and, I would say, in permanent decline. This of course affects Britain. Britain is also affected by the fact that our own home-grown capitalists have seen fit to extract profits rather than re-invest so that our industry is in a declining state even compared toits competitors in the rest of the capitalist world. I would like to see the Government not only intervening in the economy but actually taking steps to ensure. that the economy belongs to the people.
• The right wing of the Labour Party has been organising itself throughout the country in organisations such as the Social Democratic Alliance. Yet no Ur a salon or ue Labour ier exIsEs outside the Tribune group in Parliament. In giving this interview Auurey Wise asked that it be made clear that 'Being interviewed by Red Weekly doesn't imply any support on my part for Red Weekly or its policies.' We fully endorse this. Red Weekly also, by printing the interview, does not en: dorse her views. It merely means that we consider that the views put forward are ones which socialists must be aware of within As regards its general views on the Labour left the position of Red Week/y is well known and does not need repeating here-it is put forward every week in our editorials and main Do you think it is necessary for the leftwing or me Labour rarty to organis itself nationally?
One reason why the Social Democratic Alliance has been set up is because they fear they are losing their grip on the Labour Party as such. When they could work simply through the Labour Party they didn't need a separate organisation.
When they are endangered then they set up a separate organisationas they did on the unilateralist issue in 1960 when they set up the so-called Campaign for-Democratic Socialism. I think that the left is in a better position than it has ever been in the Party. The NEC is al least making a reasonabie altempl to fight for the Labour Party Conference decisions, to remain independent of the Cabinet, and to act on behalf of the Labour Party. I would decry anything which led people away from activity within the Labour Party through the unions and constituencies. This would be a diversion. On the other hand, of course people feel the need to coordinate their activity and to meet with other people to explore ideas.
That kind of organised co-ordination I am in favour of. Bit 1 am not in favour of anything which would be a substitute for action within the Labour Party itself.
of the Social Democratic Alliance within Prentice's constituency of Newham NOTER HASEL I think it is disgraceful.
• And Harold Wilson's intervention Even more disgraceful. A constituency party has the right to decide that it no longer wants its member of Parliament to be its future candidate. This is something which should be for the decision of that local Labour Party. If he loses touch with his party, and loses their confidence, then they ought to have the right to say:
In the case of Newham North East it is my personal opinion that they are right in relation to Reg Prentice. But whether I agreed with them or not, I think that it is their decision and the intervention by the Prime Minister is an attempt to intimidate a local Labour Party, and ensure that it doesn't exercise its constitutional rights.
• Whereas the Labour right and the Prime Minister have been very active in intervening in Newham North East the Labour left hasn't said much in an open way. Do you think this is a correct policy?
I believe that this is what the people in Newham North East wanted. This is something which should be in the hands of the local Labour Party. We think we have acted in a way which the Newham North East Labour Party would appreciate.
Audrey Wise speaking at the institute for Workers Control conference • What do you think of the intervention leader of the Party? "We want to chose another candidate."
her. save capitalism. • On at least three crucial questionsthe EEC, the Healey measures, and the question of Prentice-Harold Wilson has either violated the decisions of Labour Party policy-making bodies, acted against the interests of the working class, or autempted to mamicate local Labou Parties. Howdo you see his position as I don't think that this is the central question. I'm interested in fighting on the policies which are pursued and in so far as that involves opposing individuals l'am prepared to oppose them. But 1 am not willing to have the fight presented as a struggle between groups of individuals.
I see it essentially as a fight between ideas and between forces within the WEEKLY Audrey Wise is an opponent of the Healey Pay Laws-her vote in the House of Commons and her forthright statements in the interview leave no doubt about this. So far so good. However, it is on how to fight these Pay Laws that the Red Weekly finds itself in disagreement with No amount of parliamentary pressure is going to budge the Labour leaders in their drive to cut living standards. When she says 'the whole capitalist system in the western world is in decline and goes on to characterise this as a 'permanent decline" we would agree with her. It is the nature of that crisis which determines the action of Wilson and his colleagues and ensures that they will use every concevable measure to The ruling class are united behind the Pay Laws and Wilson-as he did on the EEC-will appeal over the heads of the labour movement against any challenge to the cuts.
It is not simply the votes of the MPs or even the votes at the Labour Party and Trades Union Congress that can defeat the pro-capitalist policies of the Labour Government Such votes are important as a means of mobilising the workers' movement, but in and of themselves, they are insufficient. It is only if these votes are translated into action-le. by workers in a central united campaign of strike action-can the Government's policies be defeated NOTIONAL' Audrey Wise says that the support MPs can give to people on strike is rather notional'. Such a statement is both wrong and dangerous. By openly declaring themselves in support of workers defying the Government the Labour MPs • Do you think Robert Hughes wa Yes. Undoubtedly • Do you think other left wing members of the Government should resignincluding obviously Tony Benn?
I find that I have quite a lot to do to decide on my own actions and I'n really not too keen on dishing out advice to other people on their responsibilities. Some of this is a question of judgement. If I thought that ministers stayed in the Government because they were accepting wrong policies then I would feel that we had to expose this. At the moment I have no evidence for that and as far as Tony Benn is concould give a big impetus to these workers' struggles. For there is no doubt such workers would be faced with a torrent of propaganda against their strike from the ruling class, their media and their agents in the Labour Government.
More than 'notional support would be needed. The task of the Labour MPs would be to solidarise themselves with the strikers. In the House of Commons they should oppose every measure taken against workers. Outside the House of Commons they should tour the country, building support for the workers and they should be on the picket lines These actions would be worth a thousand gestures in the House of Commons. They would help to break down the isolation that the ruling class will try and impose on the strikers and they can play an
cerned I certainly don't think that this is the case.
Then it becomes a question of judgement as to which way they can best support the Labour Party, defend the Election Manifesto, and generally help the Labour movement. We can have differences on judgement on this and I think it better to make my views known to individuals concerned rather than discuss them in the press.
I'm quite confident that Tony Benn is making his decision in the light of what he feels will be best for the movement. In so far as he is a very valuable ally for socialism at the moment then I've got to say also that I place some reliance on his own judgement on this matter.
I would also like to say that at the time of Tony Benn's transfer from the Ministry of Industry to the Ministry of Energy my own preference would have been for him not to have accepted this transfer. However I have found a lot of people in the movement who felt that he had done the right thing because they felt they preferred to have someone fighting within the Cabinet. They judged his acceptance of the transfer as a determination to continue the fight and not in any way as letting them down. So there are clearly differences of judgement.
• At the moment there are clearly many campaigns-on Chile, Shrewsbury, against the Healey measures, on Ireland, or the right to abortion-against differen spects of the government's policie Do you think it is necessary to unify these and if so how?
I've been active on a good many of the issues you mentioned. I regard my membership and activity in the Laown activity. Fighting around the Labour Party Election Manifesto involves a good many strands also, and we did fight on things which are less to the forefront-things proving conditions for working people. Thus the defence of the Manifesto is a unifying theme.
ty must be the Labour Party and the trade unions.
ons such as the Institute for Workers Control which are not simply Labour Party organisations?
to participate in a body like the Institute for Workers Control because that allows for wider exchanges of views. I also think that is a unifying theme. When we examine, for example, the question of women's rights what we are asking for is control over our own lives.
boil down to giving workers more control over their own lives, both individually and as a class. Most topics in fact come down to people eing able to express themselves a eople, control their own lives, no dominate other people's lives, and not be dominated by huge forces - red weekly 14 august 1975 bour Party as being the thing which lets me unify different strands in my like more open government as well as defending living standards and imOrganisationally the centre of activi• But you also participate in organisatiI think it is useful to be willing the question of workers control itself Manifesto was summed up in the sentence on the fundamental shift in the balance of wealth and power, and it is an utter distortion for people like the Chancellor or the Prime Minister to say that we kept our side of the bargain because we increased pensions-as if that single action absolved the Government from all further responsibility.
If you're going to have a social contract it has got to be a contract which says that the Government is acting as the political arm of the workers and is bringing the economy into the hands of the people of this country. That social contract I'm in favour of, and the measures outlined in the Manifesto were its beginning.
• If we accept for the moment as correct your radical view of Labour's Manifesto policies, how do you think that the inevitable capitalist resistance to any left wing government can be dealt with? Wouldn't a real left wing government meet the same resistance as in Chile and -wise/comment - 9 I'm in favour of direct democracy. I'm against the capitalist system because it takes away from people the power to control their own lives and to decide on how their labour should be used.' likely to be the policies appropriate to their situation. I intend to visit Portugal to see something of it for myself.
What do you think the members of the organisations ot the revorumonary left should do in the present situation?
• I think really that they are superfluous and irrelevant. Therefore I think you can draw your own conclusion from that. I think that the essential political struggle in this country is carried out by, in, and through the trade union and labour movement. And if you really want to be effective in politics that's where you should be. Of course you would probably
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